Whatever, I'm going to write will not please everyone, but still I'll do!
Recently in Februrary 2008, with other Fedora ambassadors and contributors we were at FOSDEM. Yes, yet again, we all wore our blue ambassador t-shirt with pride.
Everyone in the Fedora team talked pretty much what they do at the Fedora Project to the public and how important it is ( from koji, packaging, transifex, OLPC, translation, R, FEL .... ). Ok stop ! I should rephrase my sentence "how important it is for the users".
We had many visitors at the Fedora booth. Many were RHEL users and using Fedora at home. Compared to last year, this time, many RHEL users were gathering at the Fedora Booth and talking with us. It was rather fruitful to me listening to their needs, especially I'll soon join the real professional work life.
Nevertheless, I was fed up, but REALLY FED UP, with random comments such as:
" I quit fedora because of yum "
" I quit fedora because of selinux "
" I quit fedora because X, Y and Z "
" I quit fedora because fedora's KDE had always the bluecurve theme "
Ok, some people have different opinions. So I do, while talking politics. Well I ignored those comments.
Today, while having a glance to my rss feeds, what do I find ?
"Ubuntu Gets SELinux". I quickly flew over a few more words:
"This is the result of the amazing work of the ubuntu-security and ubuntu-hardened teams."
Ha, there is something wrong here !
First, some previous users quit fedora because of SELinux, in favour of Ubuntu which doesn't support it. But now Ubuntu gets SELinux ? Hmm who is not listening to its users ?
Second, this is the result of amazing work of DanWalsh and his colleagues. The credit goes to them, and NOT ubuntu-security and ubuntu-hardened teams.
I don't recall where I have seen this phrase, but it sounds truthfully true and I give credit to that writer.
In FedoraLand, people talk "Linux" and in UbuntuLand people talk "Ubuntu".
You might be thinking that I'm bashing, Ubuntu well no. I just don't find the Logic in it. After all there is no sense of community in the UbuntuLand.
Another thing I've noted at FOSDEM this year that, those who met me last year did stop by to say "hi, how are you doing ?" I did the same whenever I went to get myself a break or a drink. Now who are the ones who stopped by ? Those were CentOS guys, Opensuse, a kopete developer, AMSN developers(thanks for the t-shirt), some are unaffiliated.
Ok, let's slow down a moment, I think CentOS guys (Dag, Karanbir, Dries, and the guy with the white hair I met at Chemnitz2007 and FOSDEM) are a rock solid team.
The RPM family is really a family. If this isn't social, I don't know how to call it.
On Fedora IRC channels, Ubuntu guys need X, Y and Z on IRC, fedora guys simplify their life. Debian guys need something or patches from Fedora KDE contributors, Rex, Kevin and others give them.
Well after all, why can't there be ground for real collaboration and really community ? Ok, someone last time said "because you have Red Hat". What's the problem? I'm not a software engineer, but microelectronics, sometimes I need help to code other than VHDL and Tcl. Red Hat engineers (Rahul, Jesse, Jeremy, Max, to name a few) are there to give me that help I need. Please don't take that away from me. Yes, sometimes, some scolded me because of my stupid hacks to get something working, but I deserved those. At least I learnt pretty nice things from the Fedora community.
Have a look at this title Bet you didn't know Linux could do this!". In UbuntuLand, it would be called "Bet you didn't know Ubuntu could do this!".
If you are thinking that Fedora should be popping more "Fedora" words in their title, I think you are wrong ! While Fedora contributors think "community" and shaking hands with CentOS and OpenSuse, others are just having a glimpse at the windows and waiting the perfect time to steal.
Friday, March 21, 2008
Curse Fedora everytime and everywhere, but still you will be using their technologies in the future.
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21 comments:
Hm, while I do admit that I'm sometimes as well frustrated by the entire "whoohoo, Ubuntu is everything is Ubuntu" stuff it is not like they don't invent anything.
- Ubuntu had the guts to finally really think about replacing init - with Fedora picking up upstart now in the next release.
- Afaik Ubuntu was the first distribution to introduce automatic codec downloading of some kind at least.
There are other things as well.
I think you are missing the point of the mentioned quote about getting Selinux into Ubuntu: the security-ubuntu team did the work to include Selinux with their distribution - the quote doesn't say that they actually did the work to create Selinux.
And honestly, I would not even read the quote in such a way.
So while I can understand that you are sometimes pissed of by Ubuntu you might just want to take a step back: it's not *that* bad.
Also, if you really want to bitch some negative community members, pick Debian: I yet have to meet a Debian user who I can talk to about Linux instead of just Debian :D
Well said
+ 1 from me.
No comment on the content, but I have seen 4channers express themselves more clearly than you just did.
Honest question not making a dig here. What of worth has Unbuntu given back other than upstart? Its a really valuable contribution but I actually can't think of anything major to come out of the Ubuntu guys off the top of my head.
Fedora on the other hand I think of libvirt, selinux, PolicyKit, taking the forfront on solidifying wireless drivers, and pulse audio. I can keep going for quite some time. I'm closer to the Fedora project though. Please educate me I know I'm just missing something.
Am a Debian user. I grew up using Redhat then somewhere along the line i tried other distros I finally settled on Debian ( note , i didnt go for ubuntu ) . But you know what i recommend for people ? i tell them to use Fedora. Ubuntu has an active forums ? Haah!! Fedora guys have been doing that for a long long time. Its nothing new. I work with a localisation/local language computing tools development team. We don't have a Canonical dude asking us for inputs or giving us healthy directions. We have a Redhat employee though. And she has been of great help. Ubuntu shows how marketing can get a few things done - like popularity. For all the work redhat team has done over the years, I would give them some kind of award. Don't worry redhat people. We know who works with community and who doesn't. We know who stuck by us and we respect you . We remember the rpms. Even though they were a PITA ( now they are not ) the fact that they were there and usually we could get the rpms we needed consoled us. Redhat will live long :)
Ubuntu is not really a development distribution that works actively upstream to Linux at all. It's a packaging distribution -- they pretty much only package Linux (and most of their work is already done by Debian). I think Meeks is correct when he calls Ubuntu a bit of a leech onto the Linux community -- takes a lot from it, but doesn't give much back.
Canonical/Ubuntu's most innovative technologies (i.e. Launchpad) are proprietary. Compare this to the openSUSE Build Service or KIWI which is not only under the GPL, but explicitly made to package for all other distributions. Or selinux.
Red Hat and SUSE/Novell however are employing countless developers to constantly work -- day in day out -- upstream developing applications in KDE/GNOME, X, OpenOffice.org, the kernel, and security frameworks. It can be a little disheartening when Ubuntu just splash their marketing around a product (i.e. Compiz or selinux) and don't really give credit where it's due.
Another interesting point this brings to mind is what they did with their marketing on Bullet-Proof-X.
It seems to me that every single person who's participated in this discussion so far has completely missed what Ubuntu REALLY gives back to Linux.
The Ubuntu community may not produce much source code or patches, they may not drive much development work on cutting edge projects, they may not even innovate in any way regarding the software itself.
The one thing that Ubuntu really has completely owned all other distributions in, is getting fresh blood involved in Linux.
Without a doubt, no matter how much they leech from Linux, they are without a doubt, an integral part of the larger Linux community.
And the things they've really given back are things like publicity, marketing and raising Linux-awareness.
It's all about getting new users involved, giving the newbie a way into the open-source world. It's in their mission statement to 'empower the community'! Everything they do is about getting their users involved. They hold regular packaging jams, developer weeks and mentoring sessions. They write a hell of a lot of documentation, and above all else, they are the MOST keyed in to what their users, the newbies, need. I can't say that for any other distribution out there.
Yes, criticize Ubuntu, and put them in their place when they don't attribute the communities that deserve recognition for their work, but please, don't get resentful. A lot of the Ubuntu! Ubuntu! shouting is done by newbies who don't know any better, it's just a sign that Linux is expanding, and should be celebrated rather than spurned.
^^
+1
I think that posts like this are the leading reason that GNU/Linux suffers in the "market share" arena. There is constant bickering and arguing over distributions.
Whether they are a first day Ubuntu user or a 10 year Red Hat veteran, at the core, we are all using GNU/Linux and should push more for unity and collaboration among as many distributions as possible.
Me? I'm a masochist. I've rolled my own GNU/Linux for the last 5 years and started with Red Hat in 1996. I play around with several distributions on a daily basis and as a Free Software developer, I look for improving GNU/Linux. Not Ubuntu, not Fedora, not any other distribution. If they benefit from the contributions, that's great, but it's a side effect.
Brand loyalty is insignificant. Getting people using GNU/Linux and understanding the Freedom that comes along with it should be priority number one.
+1 to the Article.
Even I'm fed up with UbuntuLand people. Their thinking is too much ubuntu-centric and they doesn't care (not everybody but majority) about Linux as a whole.
I am recently switched to Fedora 8 and I found their community, forums etc. are not too Fedora-centric.
I am not going back to Ubuntu in foreseeable future.
-10 and "whip in the butt" for all ubuntu-centric so called Linux-lovers.
I agree 100% with your article. When I saw the selinux/ubuntu thing on Digg, I laughed and commented "ubuntu teams didn't do anything other than making a .deb file and compile a kernel."
Also, ignore the people who say that you or your posts are reasons that GNU/Linux doesn't have market share. In my experience, those people are people(fanboys) that can't stand any criticism about their distro.
That's true. Currently I use Ubuntu but back in my home where I had only dialup internet I used Fedora a lot (which came with a pc magazine). When I used Fedora I always felt (and I always said) I'm using Linux. Now, I felt I'm using just Ubuntu. Certainly, there are many things Fedora can learn from Ubuntu. Read my conversation with my friend http://goodbutbad.blogspot.com/2008/03/refer-ubuntu-and-get-cup-of-coffee-from.html who wasn't happy with Fedora and I asked him to install Ubuntu and that worked. Users certainly prefer a working system especially new users. No matter how much famous a Linux Distro can be, they should never forget their religion which is of course - Linuxism. Fedora, no doubt, is a better disciple than Ubuntu.
ashok,
Your "story" was called out for being the ubuntu fanboy spam it is when it was posted it to Digg. It's standard ubuntu spam-"I installed this distro, but had all these problems, then I installed ubuntu and everything is perfect!".
Curse ubuntu all you want. It is still the cause Linux is now a viable possibility in the desktop.
http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?f=73
THIS, shows a clear problem with Ubuntu.
I know that this kind of s*** has to happen sooner or latter in linux world. However, with Ubuntu, linux is no longer a hope, a dream to realise, but mearly another piece of junk that people install on their pc.
I think that in a predictable future, it wont be ubuntu linux, but ubuntu based on linux kernel, just like BSD and OS X.
If you like the post please digg it:
http://digg.com/linux_unix/Fedora_is_Everywhere
Vexorian and sekh, I think you didn't understand me.
I'm calling for fair-play, is that hard to make people understand.
Okay, lets deconstruct this: From what you mentioned none of the people quit Fedora and then moved to Ubuntu solely due to SELinux, also if you read the full post instead of just quoting out of context to attempt a point the full article said:
It's official: SELinux is now available in the Ubuntu development ('Hardy Heron') distribution. "This is the result of the amazing work of the ubuntu-security and ubuntu-hardened teams, as well as the huge contributions from the folks at Tresys (SELinux will not be the default, but is available as a security option)." In other news, Sun has started offering Ubuntu as an option.
There you have it, they mentioned the original developers Tresys - infact mentioning their huge contributions - also it's SELinux is not the default on Ubuntu so maybe thats why the users you commented about in the blog changed? Maybe they want Ubuntu and won't necessarily be using SELinux as it's not by default.
Also on your blog you mention:
In FedoraLand, people talk "Linux" and in UbuntuLand people talk "Ubuntu".
Which is why on the front page it says:
About Ubuntu
Ubuntu is a community developed, Linux-based operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. It contains all the applications you need - a web browser, presentation, document and spreadsheet software, instant messaging and much more.
Yes, people shorten it to Ubuntu within the community, and why not? The same can be applied to Vista, XP - you don't always say Windows XP/Vista, It could be applied to BSD but they don't put effort into names (see FreeBSD, NetBSD, PC-BSD ;) )
Fedora does have respect amongst the Linux community, we know what you give back to the Linux world and we are thankful, we know that every distro takes bits from other distros and it's encourage but we don't expect them to go on release day "oh yeah...those wireless drivers we took from Fedora" why should they? It would make no sense, and make an for an extremely long, boring and a press release that wouldn't attract anyone.
The original blog post is spot on. Sorry you are getting crucified in the UbuntuRadio forums, er, I mean LugRadio forums.
To many people today, especially those who like to submit articles to Digg, Ubuntu is Linux. This is quite unfortunate. In reality, Ubuntu is becoming _less_ Linuxy. Ubuntu isn't even a top-level distribution like Debian, Slackware, or whatever. It's a derivative. They don't want LUGs, they want LoCo teams. They don't want Linux users, they want "Ubunteros". They take the hard work of the Xorg devs and make it their own 'Unbreakable X'.
I think Ubuntu has forked the entire F/OSS community. :-)
i disapoint about fedora 9. they dont have gparted on livecd, they dont have ppc livecd, they dont have desktop switch environment, they dont have language switch environment. everyting destoyed after fedora 8 release!!!
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